Tarbert, Argyll, 26 December 1883 - Hugh Carmichael

HUGH CARMICHAEL, Fisherman (40)—examined.

46194. The Chairman.
—Are you proprietor of more than one boat, or are you strictly a fisherman yourself ?
—A fisherman.

46195. Have you any land ?
—Yes, I have a small cottage and garden.

46196. But have you any kind of croft or field ?

46197. Nothing but the house and the stance ?
—And a small garden.

46198. Professor Mackinnon.
—You have been engaged in fishing all your life ?
—Yes, mostly.

46199. In this place and round about ?

46200. So that you know the condition of the fishing in Loch Fyne thoroughly well ?
—Yes, pretty well.

46201. Of late years, I suppose, the fishing has improved very much in this place ?

46202. To what do you attribute this improvement?
—There are various reasons. The first reason is that there are screw steamers plying between here and Glasgow, and we get a better price owing to that. In former years there were no screws, and of course the price was not so good. Since these screws have been introduced, the price is double what it used to be formerly.

46203. In addition to getting a larger price for the fish, do you think there is more fish landed now in the village here ?
—Yes, owing to the trawling system.

46204. So there are two causes—there is more fish caught and there is a better price ?

46205. When does the fishing season begin here ?
—There is no close season at all

46206. But when do you actually begin to fish ?
—In May.

46207. And you continue right on from May till when?
—Till December.

46208. Of late years, I understand, a good number of the fishermen here go over to the Ayrshire shore ?

46209. When do they go there ?
—About the beginning of January.

46210. And they are there, off and on, for about two months?

46211. And from that time till the fishing in Loch Fyne commences again they are at home ?
—Yes, they are at home.

46212. What do they do during that time?
—They prepare their nets and boats for the beginning of May.

46213. Is it the skill's you use here that you use on the Ayrshire coast ?

46214. Do you find thev suit quite well on that rough shore?
—Yes, they are very suitable. Of course, they have got them larger these few years back.

46215. They are getting larger year by year ?

46216. Is that specially for the Loch Fyne fishing or for the Ayrshire fishing ?
—For the Ayrshire coast. They would do smaller for Loch Fyne, but larger boats are required for the Ayrshire coast; it is a rough coast.

46217. You do not live in the boats; you live ashore ?
—We lodge ashore when we go to Girvan.

46218. Do you carry on the fishing by trawling at night, just as here?
—Yes, just in the same way.

46219. You have not such a good harbour there ?
—No, it is not good at Ballantrae or Girvan. Of course they have improved Girvan harbour this year.

46220. Can you enter it at all states of the tide?

46221. Where do you go?
—We have to lie at anchor off the mouth of the harbour till the tide makes, in a storm. It would be of great advantage if the mouth of the harbour were made deep, so that boats could get in at any time.

46222. Is it of late years that that fishing has developed?
—It is a good many years since.

46223. Where do the fishermen go from to that place?
—From almost every fishing port in Loch Fyne—from Campbeltown, and down by Troon and Ardrossan, and all these ports.

46224. Have they much the same style of boats that you have?
—Yes, most of them.

46225. They are not big boats, in which the men sleep?
—Well, this year or two back they have been getting what they call decks, and they live in them now.

46226. It is just a larger skiff, with a deck?

46227. But there are none of the big boats that we find on the north and east coasts ?
—These would not suit for that coast at all; they would be too large. There is plenty room to work them, but they would not be suitable for that fishing at all.

46228. Is that because it is too near shore ?
—The boats would be too large; they could not work.

46229. They could not pull the trawl ?

46230. I understand you consider your own skiffs large enough for that purpose ?
—They are quite large enough, worked with the oars.

46231. Then you have given up entirely the white fishing in the winter ?
—There are very few boats prosecuting the line fishing.

46232. They used to go to the west shore for the line fishing ?
—Yes, they used to go with the long line to Jura Sound, and some boats prosecute it yet from here in the beginning of spring.

46233. I suppose you yourself were engaged in the fishing years before trawling was legalized?
—Yes, with drift nets.

46234. These have been entirely given up, or nearly given up ?
—They are nearly given up, especially in Tarbert; but they have been prosecuting the drift net fishing in Upper Loch Fyne more than here, and it has been almost a complete failure this year.

46235. Your fishing here for the last two or three years has been quite as successful as ever it was ?
—For about four years it has been very successful with the trawl.

46236. So, whatever may be said about other places, trawling has not injured the fishing here ?
—Not in Loch Fyne.

46237. The fishermen consider the trawl of great advantage as compared
with the old drift net?
—Yes, it is a great advantage to them, and it is a great advantage for the market too. They get the fish earlier than they would by working with the drift net.

46238. Do you mean that you pull the trawl earlier in the night?
—Yes; we fish in daylight too.

46239. So you can send away the fish at any time?

46240. Has the population increased in the place within your time?
—Yes, very much. There is double the population in the town, I think, than there was twenty years back.

46241. Has that been by fishermen coming from the outside and settling, or by people growing up in the place ?
—By people growing up in the place.

46242. Are there many fishermen who have come in from the outside to Tarbert ?
—Not very many.

46243. They are all the people of the place?
—Yes, there are very few strangers.

46244. I suppose this has been a herring fishing station for a long time back ?
—Oh yes.

46245. Have the people always been fishermen, fishing summer and winter, as they are now; is that the way it used to be in old times ?
—So far as I remember, they did not follow it in winter; in olden times they only followed it during the summer.

46246. What did they do during the rest of the year?
—Some of them had crofts, and others went away to sea, and so forth.

46247. Are you acquainted with the conditions of life away in Skye and Lewis?
—I was only two years fishing north.

46248. Was this the kind of life they led here a good while ago, —partly engaged with the crofts and partly engaged with the fishing at home and elsewhere ?
—I think so. There were a good many who had crofts about a mile out of the town.

46249. These went also to the fishing?

46250. But they have given these crofts up ?

46251. The fishermen have no crofts now?
—Very few. Three or four, or perhaps half a dozen, have crofts, and follow the fishing too.

46252. How do they get their crofts attended to?
—They work them partly themselves, and their families.

46253. But they do not remain at home from the fishing to work the crofts ?

46254. As the fishing is carried on here, with a ready market, and with a good fishing ground for so long a period of the year, do you think it would be an advantage for a fisherman to follow both occupations or a disadvantage ?
—It would be no advantage just now, in the present circumstances, seeing the fishing is doing so well; but in the event of the fishing failing in Loch Fyne I think it would be an advantage for them to have crofts at a reasonable rent, because there is no other work that could be done in this village by which they could earn a livelihood; they must leave home and go to sea.

46255. But with the Loch Fyne fishing as it is?
—As it is at present, they would do as well without crofts.

46256. You do not think they could work both?
—Not very well, owing to the way the fishing is prosecuted now, because they work day and night, you may say, at the fishing.

46257. And it will take up all their time?
—It will take up all their time.

46258. And you think that as things are in this place, it would be better for the man who would be a fisherman to be a fisherman, and not be hanging about between the two things ?
—Yes, that is my opinion.

46259. Of course that would depend entirely upon the circumstances of the place ?

46260. In this place that would be the best, in your view ?

46261. How many nets has each boat, with the trawl?
—They have only one trawl net in each boat.

46262. What is the length of it ?
—About 90 fathoms

46263. And the depth?
—About 18 fathoms.

46264.. And there are always two boats working together?

46265. They arrange among themselves at the beginning of the season which two boats shall go together?

46266. And they work together the whole season ?

46267. I suppose their two trawls are attached end upon end?
—No, there is only one trawl in each boat, and when they come across a shoal of herrings the one boat shoots round the shoal, and each boat pulls in its own net; and then, when the net is at the stern, they lift it out of the water, and if there are fish in the net they take them into the boat.

46268. Has the net a bottom?
—Yes, and there is a sole rope to the bottom of the net.

46269. So you can make a complete circle?
—Yes; we can either draw to shore or wring out in deep water.

46270. Which is the more common practice?
—Drawing to shore is the most common.

46271. And, I suppose, the surer to catch the fish?

46272. There is less danger of the fish slipping away from you ?
—Yes. There is one thing I would suggest, viz., a weekly close time, which would be a great advantage to the fishermen at Loch Fyne. I mean a close time from sunset on Saturday till sunrise on Monday.

46273. That you would not be allowed to fish between these two times ?

46274. Is that not the law just now ?
—If it is the law, it is not carried out. There are fishermen from Campbeltown allowed to fish on Sabbath and at any time they choose, and we the fishermen of Tarbert are at a great disadvantage in that respect. It would be a great improvement if there was a weekly close time, so that all fishermen would have the same opportunity on the Monday morning. There would be better prices, too, because the market would not be open to receive the fish on the Monday.

46275. So that the Sunday fishing injures the market and diminishes the supply of fish?
—Yes, and it would be an advantage for the herrings themselves. They would come in to the shore better if they got quiet from Saturday till Monday morning, seeing the whole fleet is working the whole week just now.

46276. As to those that do go out, I suppose it is in the early portion of Saturday night or Monday morning that they go out ?
—Yes, and some of them work on Sabbath.

46277. And those who do that have a great advantage over the others ?
—Yes, of course; and we wish to have them all put on an equal footing, so that every fisherman would have a better chance.

46278. You think the total supply of fish would be quite as great as it is now, supposing the Sunday fishing were put a stop to, and it would be fairer to all the people engaged in the fishing?

46279. Sheriff Nicolson.
—Is this the principal fishing station on Loch Fyne ?

46280. And it has been so since time immemorial ?
—Yes, on Upper Loch Fyne.

46281. The whole of Loch Fyne has been a good place for herring, so far as history tells us?

46282. The herring have never left it yet?

46283. Is there any likelihood or fear that they will ?
—No, so far as we can judge.

46284. What are the limits within which you fish in Loch Fyne?
—We fish from Campbeltown up to the head of Upper Loch Fyne. We are not restricted to any certain portion.

46285. Where is your chief fishing ground ?
—From Campbeltown to Ardrishaig.

46286. The boats you use are not so large as those used at Wick and on the east coast generally ?

46287. Will you mention exactly what their distinctive character is in comparison with the east coast boats ?
—The boats we use run from twentyfour to twenty-six feet keel, and we find they are quite large enough for the trawl fishing here, because larger boats could not be handled with oars.

46288. You make great use of oars instead of sail ?

46289. Have your men sometimes to pull for hours without raising a sail ?

46290. Is it not a characteristic of the fishing ground and coast here, as distinguished from the northern and east coasts, that you are more sheltered ?
—Yes, we are more sheltered in Loch Fyne.

46291. That gives you a great advantage over the inhabitants of the north-west Highlands ?
—Yes; the loch is more sheltered and safer.

46292. It makes it possible for you to fish always, except when there is a storm ?

46293. I suppose you know there is a very great difference in that respect in the coasts of Skye, Shetland, Barra, and these places ?
—Yes, these places are far more exposed. We could not prosecute the herring fishing away north with the trawl. It is quite a different system from the drift net.

46294. Do you think the trawl fishing could not be carried on profitably there, as it is here?
—No, not in the ocean.

46295. Why?
—Because our boats would be too small, and we could not work the trawl with large ones.

46296. What kind of boats do you consider best for trawling ?
—These boats that we have got here, about twenty-six feet keel and eight or nine feet beam.

46297. A big heavy one would not be suitable?
—No, it would not be suitable at all.

46298. Why ?
—We could not manage it with oars, and it is with oars principally that we work.

46299. Then the only other alternative is a steamer ?
—A steamer.

46300. Which they use in the Firth of Forth with great profit?
—Yes. The trawl may through time come to be worked by steamers.

46301. Could a small boat work with a big one, trawling in the open sea ?
—It might, but the weather would require to be steady and calm.

46302. Is the condition of most of the inhabitants of Tarbert comfortable as compared, for instance, with that of the people of Skye and the Lewis and the west coast of Ross-shire?
—Yes, they are very comfortable.

46303. They are well-to-do ?
—Yes, they are well-to-do.

46304. Are there any of the fishermen who are poor and in debt and in bad circumstances, owing to causes over which they have no control ?
—Not that I am aware of. If they are they have no cause to be, because the fishing has been very good these five or six years back.

46305. There has never been any destitution here?
—Yes, in former years.

46306. How long since ?
—About six years back, there were very few fish to be got in Loch Fyne, and most of the fishermen had to go away north. There were plenty of herrings in the loch that year, but they could not be caught. They were lying out in the deep.

46307. Did that cause much distress among the population ?
—Yes, for that year.

46308. But it never approached to positive want or scarcity of food?
—It did not exactly come to that, but it was very severe for that year.

46309. Originally the population here, like those on the rest of the west coast, were occupying land as crofters or cottars, fishing occasionally?

46310. When did that cease? Has it come about gradually, or did it happen at any particular period ?
—There is another of the delegates to speak, and he has more experience and knowledge of that than I have,
being an older man than I am.

46311. Has everybody here a kail-yard, at least?

46312. Are there some without a bit of ground at all?
—Yes, most of the people in Tarbert are without any land at all.

46313. But they manage to live quite comfortably notwithstanding?
—Yes, these four years back, anyway.

46314. Have any of them got a cow ?
—There are a few about the village who have got a cow—say ten or fifteen fishermen.

46315. Is the supply of milk good?
—Well, it is very scarce —at least there is not a sufficient supply for the people of the village.

46316. Where is it supplied from?
—It comes from about four miles from here, and a farm about two miles away, but there is not a sufficient supply of milk for the village.

46317. What is the number of boats here?
—There are sixty-seven trawling skiffs.

46318. Are these generally the property of more than one man?
—Yes, they are always between four men. Each boat has four men, and each man has a share of both boat and nets.

46319. But they all belong to themselves?

46320. They never have to work for fish-curers ?

46321. What is the cost of an average boat without its nets ?
—Between £60 and £70.

46322. And a complete set of nets or trawls ?
—About £35 or £40 ; say £35.

46323. Your boats are made here?
—Yes, they are built here.

46324. The Chairman.
—You stated that the price of the fish had increased, and that the quantity of the fish procured had increased; what is thought to be about the number of fish that exists ? Are the fish being reduced in number, or do you think they are just as abundant as they ever were at any previous period ?
—To my judgment, I think they are as abundant as at any previous period.

46325. They are as abundant, but we have been told that they are differently distributed—that they do not come as high up the loch as they used to do ; is that so ?

46326. Is it observed that they are gradually getting further and further down towards the deep water, or are they stationary now ?
—Well, they have taken an upward course these fours years back. They have been stationary about two miles from this harbour. Most of the fish were lying at the mouth of Upper Loch Fyne last year.

46327. Then you think the fish are beginning to go higher up again ?
—Yes, that is our experience of it these four years back.

46328. That formerly they were higher, and then they fell back, and now they are going up again ?
—Yes, they are going up again.

46329. So there is no apprehension that the fish are going to leave the loch and gradually get outside or lower down ?

46330. About how long has the winter fishing on the Ayrshire coast been prosecuted; how long have they been in the habit of going there ?
—About thirty years.

46331. At what period of the year is that ?
—January, February, and March. They leave the banks of Ballantrae about the beginning of March.

46332. And all the fish caught upon the Ayrshire coast during those months are in a spawning condition ?

46333. Do you think it is a wasteful and abusive system to catch the fish on the spawning beds, or do you think the number of fish and their prolific character is so great that it will never have any effect upon them, whatever quantity you catch?
—Well, the Ballantrae fishing has been prosecuted these six years with great success, and we do not find that the fish are diminishing in the least.

46334. You do not find either that there are fewer fish in Loch Fyne or fewer fish on the spawning beds ?

46335. Then it is not considered that there is any dread or fear that the fish will be diminished by being killed on the spawning beds, or diminished so much as to effect the fishing ?
—No, I do not think so, because it has been prosecuted these four or five years back with great success, and the herrings in Loch Fyne are as plentiful as they were previous to that.

46336. Still, four or five years is not a very long time to judge by ?

46337. In catching the fish on the spawning beds, are there a great number of the fish destroyed and wasted, or are all those that are taken taken in such a condition that they can be sent to market ?
—All that are fished are sent to market. Most of them are sent to the English market.

46338. There are not many thrown into the sea ?

46339. Are not fish a great deal more delicate at that time, and apt to be injured and fall to pieces ?
—-Yes, but they are very speedily got tomarket.

46340. Are they just lightly salted and sent as it were fresh to market ?
—Some put salt on them, and others send them away fresh to market.

46341. Quite fresh ?

46342. Do the people here think it is a great advantage to go down for these two months to Ayrshire, or would they rather not go ?
—Some of them reap the benefit, and others do not ; but it would be more injurious to the people on the Ayrshire coast than it would be to the Loch Fyne fishermen if it were not prosecuted, because they depend on that fishing principally for a livelihood.

46343. Do they use the same kind of boats that you do here?
—Yes, about the same.

46344. You mentioned that the harbour at Girvan had been improved last year; who gave money to improve it?
—The Railway Company, I believe, and the town's people.

46345. Did they get a loan for that purpose from Government?
—I am not sure.

46346. Was it a very expensive business; did they spend a great deal of money ?
—I think, £9000 or £10,000, but I don't remember. Some of the fishermen present will have an idea of the amount that was spent.

46347. When you speak of trawling here, is trawling the same thing that it is upon the east coast ? Is the word used in the same sense ?
—It is a different system altogether.

46318. You have none of the instruments or machinery by which they rake the bottom upon the east coast Ì

46319. Is there any apprehension that steam trawling will be introduced here, and that they- will bring the same description of machinery and contrivances here that they have on the east coast?
—There is no apprehension of that, because the bottom of this coast is quite rocky and rough, and these steam trawls would not work in Loch Fyne. They would tear all their nets; the bottom is quite rough.

46350. But people are very ingenious; do you not think they might contrive something ?
—I do not think so. The water is very deep.

46351. Nobody, in fact, has tried steam trawling with machinery here yet ?

46352. When the two boats work together and have one net between them, and when they take the fish out between them on the sea, how do the two boats lie when the fish are being lifted into them? Do they lie close together ?
—Yes, there is about a foot between them, and the fish are in between the two boats and they lift the fish into the boats with baskets.

46353. They haul them in by the middle of the side of the boats ?

46354. Then they divide the whole quantity caught between the two boats ?

46355. When they have taken the fish into the two boats where do they fetch them to ?
—There are screws at hand ready to take them off to Glasgow.

46356. When they get the fish into the boat what do they put them into ?
—Into boxes.

46357. And they are just taken on board the screws at once ?
—Yes, and there is one thing that we as fishermen desire, and that we petitioned the Fishery Board for, namely, a standard measurement. We wanted to I have a quarter cran brand by Government, so that we might have an imperial measurement for selling our fish. There is not an imperial measurement for selling fish here at all. The buyers have got boxes.

46358. Are the boxes sometimes bigger and sometimes smaller?
—Yes; we as fishermen believe that anyhow.

46359. Has there been any imposture practised upon the people in that way ?

46360. So you want to have a box of a standard size?
—Yes, either that or a quarter cran measure —some fixed measurement that we might sell our fish by.

46361. Supposing there was a weekly close time as you mention, and no fishing was allowed between sunset on .Saturday and sunrise on Monday, that would be during all the summer months. Well, they would begin to take the fish on Monday morning at daybreak—about three or tour in the morning ?

46362. Could the fish be got to Glasgow in time for the Glasgow folk to eat them that day ?
—Yes, in the morning.

46363. Because the Glasgow people will complain that they cannot get their fish. They won't care perhaps very much about Sunday there, but they want to get their fish. Would you be able to deliver the fish in time
for dinner on Monday ?
—Yes, I believe in time for breakfast.

46364. Suppose you started as early as twelve o'clock on Sunday night, you would have to go out from here by eight or nine o'clock on Sabbath evening ?

46365. You would not like that ?
—No ; we would not have that at all.

46366. What o'clock do you think would be the soonest you could start on Monday morning—two or three o'clock?

46367. And you would be on the ground fishing by four ?

46368. And the fish would be in Glasgow and in the shops I suppose by two o'clock ?
—The steamers go up from Loch Fyne in five hours.

46369. Straight into the river ?
—Yes, between Loch Fyne and Glasgow in five hours.

46370. Where do they discharge ?
—At the Broomielaw.

46371. How long are the people busy and how long are they idle? The summer fishing will last fully six months ?

46372. The half of May, June, July, August and September, October, and into November ?
—Yes, that is the general time.

46373. And then it begins again in January—January, February, and March —may we call it two and a half or three months ?
—Two and a half.

46374. That makes eight and a half months ?

46375. And it leaves three and a half months of comparative idleness. Now, how do the people get on during those three months; what do they do?
—Some of them try the long lines over in Jura Sound.

46376. In what months would they go to that long line fishing ?
—April. They prosecute it for about a month.

46377. Then November and December are partly idle, and part of April and May; what do they do in the idle spring mouths ?
—They get their boats and nets put in order, and prepared tor the next season's fishing.

46378. Is it considered that the work during the eight or nine months when they do work is so hard and exhausting that the people require rest to recruit themselves, or if they had work to do during the idle months,
would they be able and willing to work all the year round ?
—I believe they would be able and willing to work all the year, especially those who had families

40379. Then you don't think there is anything so hard in a fisherman's life that he requires more rest than other labourers ?
—That is the very reason why we as fishermen of Loch Fyne would like to have a weekly close time, so that we would get the rest from Saturday till Monday.

46380. You would rather have your rest every week than have a long period of idleness in the year?
—Yes, for we find we have plenty to do in getting our boats and nets in order for work again.

46381. We have been told with reference to the effect of fishing labour upon the health and strength of the people engaged in it, that there are not very old people among the fishermen in this country—that they don't live very long; what do you think about that? Did you ever hear that remarked ?
—No, I think they live to a good age in Tarbert in general.

46382. You think they live as long as other people?

46383. But still I have heard from two or three persons capable of judging that you don't see as many old people about here as you do about Skye and the north-west, where the people live half on the water and half
on shore ?
—The reason I would give for that is this, that in former years people had not boats and material in as good order as they have at present, and seeing they are improving in the matter of oilskins and keeping themselves
dryer than they formerly used to do, that might be a reason why the fishing would affect their health in former times.

46384. They will be older in the future ?

46385. Where do you got your nets ?
—We get them from Kilbirnie and Paisley.

46386. Are they made there?
—Yes, and in Campbeltown.

46387. Would it not bo possible to make them here if you bought the materials ? Could not part of the idle time be employed in making nets?
—If there was a net manufactory got up, there is no doubt it would be a great advantage and improvement to the people.

46388. Are the nets made by machinery generally there?

46389. What short of machinery—steam machinery or water power, or what ?
—They are worked by something like weaving —by hand work.

46390. Then the fishing net is made where it is made by hand looms ?

46391. And there is no reason why there should not be a handloom here just as there is elsewhere?

46392. Do women work these looms, or men?

46393. Always ?

46394. Then it would not give the men more labour here, but just the women ?
—That is so.

46395. How would they like that if they had not been accustomed to the work ?
—I don't know.

46396. Has any proposal ever been made to add the manufacture of nets here to the fishing industry; could not somebody try it ?
—It was never proposed or tried.

46397. Are you quite sure there are no steam looms for making nets, or are they all hand ?
—They are all hand. I have been in the factory at Campbeltown, and the women work them just something like weaving by hand.

46398. You are sure there is no steam engine about?
—It is by the handloom.

46399. Just like a loom in a cottage?

46400. Is there any weaving here at all?
—No; there are no weavers in this town at all.

46401. To whom does the land in this place belong?
—To Mr Campbell of Stonefield.

46402. Does Mr Campbell give facilities for feuing?

46403. Can anybody get a feu who wants it and will pay for it?
—Yes, but they require to pay very dear for it.

46404. How much is it?
—The general run for feuing is 2s. per foot of frontage for a stance with a frontage of forty feet and going ninety feet back.

46405. How much per acre?
—I think it would come to about £48 or so, but I am not sure.

46406. Then there is land to be had for feuing, only you say it is dear ? Has the town been increasing of late years, or is it the same as it has been for a number of years ?
—It is increasing. They are building more these few years back.

46407. They are building more, but do they pay a higher price ?
—I think it is the same price.

46408. You say the people about Campbeltown and elsewhere come up and fish on Sunday; does that depend at all upon difference of religion ? Is it the Roman Catholics who go up on Sunday, or do Protestants do it too ?
—I think the most of them that do it have no religion at all.

46409. But you do not find that the Roman Catholics are worse about that? There are no boats that are manned altogether by Roman Catholics?
—I am not sure with regard to the Campbeltown fishing, but I know there are no Roman Catholics in Tarbert.

46410. It is not a religious question ?
—I do not think so.

46411. Not a question between the different churches?

46412. Just the custom of the place?

46413. Has any voluntary attempt been made, by representations to the people themselves or to the clergy down there, to try and prevent Sunday fishing ? Have you ever entered into communication with them to try and negotiate a common understanding not to fish ?
—Yes, we have tried that at different times.

46414. But you do not find them willing to stop?
—They will not succumb to the rules at all.

46415. Have you found that the clergy down there tried to assist you at all?
—Yes, I believe they have. They used their influence to get the men not to work during the weekly close time.

46416. But it has not succeeded?

46417. If the people who buy the fish refused to buy fish caught on Sunday there would be no use in fishing; but you don't find that the people who buy the fish have any scruples about it ?
—No, they are quite open to take them.

46418. Professor Mackinnon.
—When you said there was considerable destitution six years ago, I suppose you meant that the people were hard up ?

46419. You did not mean that they had to apply to people outside for assistance ?

46420. They were able to live upon their credit till better times came?

46420*. So there was not what we call destitution—there were only harder times ?
—Yes, only hard times.

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